(S2E10) 3 Woes and an Unlocked Abyss

In this episode, Gordon and Mark move deeper into the Trumpet judgments of Revelation, focusing on Trumpets 5 and 6, also known as the first two Woes.  While Trumpets 1–4 primarily impact the natural world—land, sea, fresh water, and light—this next phase marks a dramatic escalation.  An eagle announces three coming Woes, signaling a shift from environmental judgment to direct torment and judgment upon humanity, especially those who oppose God.

 A major portion of the episode explores the unseen spiritual backstory necessary to understand the identities of the demonic hoard seen in Trumpet 5.  The hosts argue that Revelation 9 cannot be properly interpreted without connecting it to earlier passages such as Genesis 6, Jude 6, 1 Peter 3, 2 Peter 2, Luke 8, and Isaiah 24.  

 The hosts present a detailed explanation of the Nephilim narrative. They describe how rebellious angels sought to corrupt humanity by taking human women, producing hybrid offspring and violating God’s created order. In this framework, the Flood was not only a response to human wickedness but also a decisive act to preserve the human bloodline through which the Messiah would come. The offending angels, they argue, were bound in the abyss, awaiting a future moment when God would permit their release which arrives in Trumpet 5.  

 A “star,” understood to be a fallen angel, is given the key to the abyss. When it is opened, smoke pours out, darkening the sky which symbolizes the release of deep spiritual darkness into the world.  From this abyss emerge terrifying, locust-like creatures.  These are not natural insects but demonic entities, described with a blend of human, animal, and warlike features, emphasizing their supernatural origin.  These beings are permitted to torment but not kill for five months. Their target is specifically those without God’s protective seal, reinforcing divine protection over the faithful. The torment is compared to a scorpion sting—intense, prolonged, and inescapable. So severe is the suffering that people will seek death but will not find it.

 Leading this demonic force is a king identified as Abaddon in Hebrew and Apollyon in Greek, both meaning “Destroyer.”  The use of “king” reveals there is an organized, hierarchical structure within the demonic realm and underscores the calculated nature of this judgment.  The opening of the abyss exposes a normally hidden reality which is the unseen spiritual world that God has restrained. Trumpet 5 reveals what happens when that restraint is partially lifted.

 In Trumpet 6, the second Woe, the escalation continues.  Four powerful angels, bound at the Euphrates River, are released at a precise, divinely appointed time.  Their release unleashes a massive army described as numbering 200 million that brings widespread destruction to the planet.  Through fire, smoke, and sulfur, one-third of humanity is killed, echoing past biblical judgments and demonstrating the scale of this event.

 Yet even in the face of overwhelming devastation, humanity largely refuses to repent. Survivors continue in idolatry, murder, sorcery, immorality, and theft.  This response highlights the hardness of the human heart, even when confronted with undeniable evidence of divine intervention.

 The episode concludes by reflecting on the purpose of the Woes.  These judgments reveal both God’s justice and His restraint.  Though severe, they are not yet final.  Grace and mercy are still available for the repentant. 

 Ultimately, these Trumpets prepare the stage for the final phases of judgment and the ultimate establishment of God’s kingdom.  Even in the darkest moments, the message remains clear.  God is still in control, His purposes are advancing, and His call to repentance remains open though time is running short.

Transcript

Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hello everyone. Welcome to our podcast called On Guard, Discerning Truth in End Times. My name is Gordon Douglas, and I'm here as always with my brother Mark.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining us again today. We're sure glad to have you back with us.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

We are so glad to have you back. That fact means we have not lost you yet or actually driven you away. Now I'm only about half joking, but these topics are getting deep and even difficult.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Yes, they are. And some of the depth might be too much. We hope not, but if you think that's the case, please hang in there. Some of the feedback I've received is that this material is like a college course and not an elementary school class. People say they have to actively listen. You know, that's probably the right perspective. You know, we listen to these episodes multiple times ourselves. Even after all we have done with all the preparation work, we still listen.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

We do.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

And as we mature in our spiritual life, there are a couple of passages that teach us that we should be moving on to deeper things. The first few verses of 1 Corinthians 3 and then a few in Hebrews 5 help us to understand that our spiritual walk is one that should grow and move through the basics to more detailed and difficult passages. Some of God's word is easy, but as Gordon said, we're getting into the harder stuff. Over the next few weeks, you'll see that. Try to see the big picture and just know at a minimum that you are building an awareness that will help you if and when all this starts to happen.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

And I want to say something else a little bit. How many of you listening have someone you routinely converse with about some of the deep things of the Bible? How many of you actually have someone you trust spiritually, someone you sit and have a dialogue with regarding the things God's teaching you and showing you? You know, every time I think I've got a full understanding about something, Mark's here to do that for me. He challenges my thoughts and my knowledge without challenging me personally, and I think I'm doing the same for him.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Wow, that's really kind of you to say. I really do agree with your comments. It's been a really great year of study and learning. I often say to my family that I need a fix. I got to go call Gordon. You, you know, you're bringing the vision and the heart and the direction. I'm just here to go along on the ride.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Well, I'm not sure that's totally true. We compliment each other. It's an amazing thing. I'd urge you, listeners, to find that person for you. It might not be easy because you have to find a person that spends as much or more time on it than you do, but so valuable. It forces you to look at things with another set of eyes. Well, it has certainly worked for us. Yeah. My wife Lisa can probably be credited with how this came together. Mark and I would get into discussions about these things at family events, and she would recognize just how differently we approached these topics and how differently we thought. Yet we would agree on most of what we conclude on topics. She saw it first and said, you two should start a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

And it really did happen that way. My work colleagues called that type of interaction Gordon and I had as it was called a heated agreement. Not a heated argument, but a heated agreement, which means two people with the same motivations and desires, but completely different points of view and perspectives and insights, they can work together to get a full and agreed picture or position. We're excited about what God continues to show us as we work together.

How the "1/3" from Trumpets 1-4 Relate

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Yep, we are. Today's topic will be about the fifth and sixth trumpets, which are in the ninth chapter of Revelation. Before we go there and start a new topic, we actually want to go back to chapter 8 and further detail two points that we feel like need to be addressed. The first point relates to a specific phrase used in the first four trumpets. And the second point is from the verse in Revelation 8 that we read last week just after we discussed the fourth trumpet. Mark, after we taped last week's episode, you were bothered that we didn't fully address one phrase from those first four trumpets. So what bothered you?

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Do you ever have those moments when you feel like your thoughts are being directed or influenced, you know, challenged? You know, it's like maybe the Holy Spirit is nudging you to do or say something when you normally wouldn't. Well, that happened to me on my drive home last week. I could not get the number one-third out of my brain. Do you recall that phrase from those verses? It is used in the those first four trumpets, and we didn't really speak to it. It I just felt like it needed to be addressed. Thank you for letting me take time in this episode. My specific thoughts were around the recurrence of that number one-third. After we talked, you went and actually counted them. That number was used an amazing 14 times in those four trumpet judgments. The question I kept asking myself is, what does that number mean? I know.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

And we probably didn't address it because we simply aren't sure of exactly what it really means.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Yeah, well, maybe, but I'm not sure that's a real reason to skip over it.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

I think in my mind it means that these first four trumpet judgments are not going to be final destruction and devastation. I think it means that God is directly impacting the world in a way that is unmistakable, but not final. I think he's wanting to warn, warn, warn. He's giving a very strong message, but God is still offering his mercy and grace to those who will listen.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

You know, that's probably correct. We know the bold judgments are coming in Revelation chapters 15 and 16, and with them come destruction that we think is more global in nature. But is the impact to a specific one-third of the places on earth meaning that these effects are more than more regional than global? Or does it mean that he's pointing these judgments against specific countries or peoples? So the answer might be as simple as your thoughts. These first four trumpets are just more regionalized, but is there anything else to it?

SPEAKER_01 6:20

So there's a couple possibilities. So there are scriptures in the Bible, mostly in the Old Testament, where God mentions names of countries which will be judged because they who have participated in indignations towards the Jewish people and the land of Israel. An example of that could be going on right now in Iran. Jeremiah 49 talks about Elam, which is modern-day Iran, I think. And then there's another. And we know there are people groups which are largely anti-God in their communities, morals, and laws. And then there are religious groups in total numbers that approximate that percentage. Could it be one of these that's being targeted?

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yes, I think those are possible. How about another group which we really haven't talked about? This takes a bit of a setup. Our premise is that these first four trumpets occur late in the seven-year tribulation period. We have said, like in the fourth quarter of a game, football game. For a second, recall the swim lanes metaphor, which we have told you about in previous episodes. The idea is that there are multiple activities happening simultaneously in an overlapping type situation. Here is maybe one of those rem reasons to remember that. If the timing and the swim lane thoughts are true, then the Antichrist and false prophet, which we haven't talked about yet, um, they will have already been introduced to the world and they will be fully in charge of the planet at this point. We will get to them and their actions when we get into Revelation 13. But you have to know that along the timeline, they will have already established and put into operations their mark of the beast, right? The 666 mark. If that is true, is it possible this one-third is actually aimed at some coalition of countries or people who've chosen to accept that mark? I don't know. Maybe I guess the correct answer for now is we simply don't know how this one-third will be dispersed. But I think it's clear that these first four judgments are not final, they're not conclusive, right, in terms of God's wrath. God is targeting some subset of the earth. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

And then there's one other piece of those trumpets, which is interesting. So verse 7 does say that all the green grass will be burned up. Everything else is one third, but the grass is all.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

That is strange, isn't it? I I guess it might mean that in some way all the earth is impacted, even if the other items are really more regionally focused. Maybe we can think of the grass as collateral damage, right? If the trees, oceans, springs, and light are all directly impacted, there has to be some rollover impact to the other things. Anyway, thanks for letting me get through that topic before we get started today.

An eagle announces 3 Woes!

SPEAKER_01 9:14

So the second item we want to address before going to chapter 9 is the verse in Revelation chapter 8, verse 13, which says, quote, Then I looked and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead. Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow. End quote. So John was witnessing an incredible scene that clearly spans both realms, the spiritual realm and the physical realm. In fact, that same sentiment goes for us as we read it. It's hard to differentiate between whether what we are reading from John is the spiritual or the physical. Remember, they are both just as real as real can get, but some are earthly real and some are heavenly real.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

And your commentary is right on as we discuss this eagle. The Greek word used here is aetos, which is defined interestingly enough as eagle, but actually translated as vulture in a couple other places in Scripture. Let me give you one example. Matthew chapter 24, verse 28, in the Olivet Discourse, the verse is translated this way: quote, whenever the corpse is, there the vulture, atos, there the vulture will gather, end quote. What do you think? Did John actually see an eagle fly overhead, or was it a vulture? And if so, what was the eagle that was flying overhead? Yeah. And why was it flying overhead?

SPEAKER_01 10:51

I'm not sure really the answer to that question. But I know that the message was clear. It was letting him know that these next three trumpets were intensifying in their impact to all those who dwell on the earth. Who, Mark, are those who dwell on the earth? And what does that language actually signify?

SPEAKER_00 11:10

John uses this language in the book of Revelation in multiple places to describe people that have chosen to make this world their permanent home and who are rooted firmly in the things of the world. This is in contrast to those that believe in Jesus and who have placed their citizenship in heaven. So the language John uses signifies an unbelieving world which is made up of unrepentant humanity. Soon we will see that they are the ones who take the mark of the beast. Again, this unbelieving group is in contrast with the saints of God who recognize that they are sinful, who realize that Jesus is coming back to bring heaven to earth, and who refuse to take that mark of the beast.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

So let this be a reminder, even today, that this world is not our home. We have to choose to stand against the things in it that we cling to and hold on to. Eternity and eternal things should mean more to us that believe what God is telling us and put our faith in Him, being faithful to His Word. This warning that the eagle announces in this vision to the world is, quote, brace yourself. Things are about to get far worse, end quote, for those who still refuse to turn to God. We will come back to that after we read the fifth trumpet. But I think that's exactly why these next trumpet blasts are labeled the woes.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

You are right. Those three repeated words signal a different level of severity. These aren't just disruptions in nature or society. These coming woe judgments will land directly on people. And as you will hear when we get to them, it is definitely marking a shift in the whole pattern of what God is allowing from that point going forward. We'll unpack that as we move through today's episode.

The next Trumpets escalate judgment

SPEAKER_01 13:05

So now we move forward with that message as a forewarning. Last week we covered the beginning of the trumpet judgments and discussed the details of the first four trumpets. I think it was quite an episode. And we learned from two episodes back that God will step in and cut short that devastation and destruction for those who remain faithful to Him during these times. We learn the great news that God will rapture the faithful believers at just the right time. We can't be sure of exactly when it will happen, but it will happen before he pours out his wrath on the unbelieving portions of the world and mankind. The first four trumpet judgments were blown in Revelation 8. As we discussed, the impact to earth was severe and unmistakable. The damage to the earth will be enormous. Ecological collapse, poisoned waters, and darkened skies, just to mention a few. The whole created order will be touched in some way. And right in the middle of that discussion, the third trumpet introduced a detail that didn't quite read like space debris. The language used in verse 10 was a star falls from heaven. Mark raised the possibility that this star may be more than a cosmic object. He suggested it potentially could be something more spiritual, even angelic, and we left it there until we could get to this week. As we get into the fifth and sixth trumpets this week, it appears the spiritual language for that star remains a question, and Mark might be on to some.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

There's no question the language of the fifth and sixth trumpets have escalated their impact to the planet. We will see these trumpets use completely different language than the first four trumpets. And there's some details mentioned which will demand more background study and explanation. And this study will likely challenge your understanding of things you thought were so simple and clear. Before we actually get into the fifth and sixth trumpets, we want to share some incredible background information which might be completely new to you. Or at least the details surrounding this background might be way deeper than you have considered before.

"Spirits in Prison" Background

SPEAKER_01 15:25

To introduce the topic, we want to read you a few passages from Scripture. Most of you know the story of Jesus confronting a man possessed by a legion of demons. The interaction took place in the land of the Garrisons, which is on the east bank of the Sea of Galilee. When the demons indwelling this man recognized Jesus as the one speaking to them, they said something to him. In Luke 831, they begged Jesus not to command them to depart into the abyss. In another unrelated scripture, Jude six, says something similar, quote, and the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he, God, has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

And another in first Peter chapter three, verses nineteen to twenty, Scripture says he, Jesus, went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared. And finally, in Second Peter chapter two, verse four, it says, For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

So what in the world are we talking about, and why are we talking about this stuff? Why do these passages keep circling the same themes? Abyss, prison, chains, and a group of disobedient spirits from the days of Noah. Can you help describe this context and why does it matter for what we're about to read in Revelation?

SPEAKER_00 17:19

So there's a background story that we all must understand as we get to what happens next in Revelation chapter 9 with this fifth trumpet. There is much more to this story of Satan and demons than just simply saying that Satan was expelled from heaven and is now roaming around the earth with his demonic force that fell with him. There is so much more to the story of the rebellion of these spiritual forces and the intersection here with mankind. We have to dig into it. At a very high level, what do these words you mentioned actually mean? What are their definitions? The word abyss, Strong's Concordance says this is the unfathomable death, the home of the dead and of evil spirits. The word prison, Strong's concordance says this is a cage where dwellers could be guarded and kept in. Hell and chains, again, Strong's concordance says this is Gehenna, the netherworld, the place of punishment fit only for demons, and the abode of the damned. And it adds that this is a subterranean abyss reserved for demons and the dead. Do you believe this place really exists? That's a good question. My challenge to you today is to understand this place is real. Absolutely. It exists, and the remainder of today's episode will be spent talking to the supportive details and how we see these characters again. But first, let's go back to the early days of Noah. Do you recall the Bible talking about giants or the Nephilim on earth in the days of Noah? We see that passage in Genesis chapter 6, verse 1 through 4.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

We know those things are mentioned in the book of Genesis, and many just read them and move right past them. I guess you're saying we should really understand what those verses mean. As we have said so many times, God has given us detail in his word that fills in and gives us details to understand. That short passage is real and is part of the story of the downfall and corruption of mankind on earth. God is not just saving us who believe in Jesus, but he is redeeming all of creation, the whole earth, and putting things back as they were meant to be.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

These difficult parts of that Noah story are coming back up here in Revelation chapter 9. When we read things in detail like what we will see in the fifth and sixth trumpets, we must know that the creatures mentioned are traced back to a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Two of those verses we read a few minutes ago said that these demons who were chained up or locked up were there, quote, until the day of judgment. Well, these times in Revelation are the until judgments happen, fulfillment. The end times events will deal with these demons or giants or evil spirits again. Mark, I know this is right up your alley. Let's see if we can give the background in as brief a way as possible.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Okay, I will do my best. Keep me on task. My introduction to this topic occurred 35 or 40 years ago, and it challenged my entire world and perspective on God and heaven. Having spent years studying those details, I have to say that it simultaneously altered, strengthened, and fortified my belief in God, his divinity, his word, and his plan. Does your worldview say scripture is simple, or that prophecy is too controversial, or that the unseen realm is not real? Do you skip over the spiritual passages because they're just too hard to explain? If so, then what we are about to cover will challenge you, guaranteed. But know this, these topics are not foreign to the Bible. The reality is this the Bible does not present spiritual warfare as a metaphor or as symbolism. There is a spiritual rebellion that really, really, really occurred back in time, and if allowed, would still be active today. There's an enemy who really schemes against mankind. The evil side of the spiritual world has been trying to stop or thwart God's long held redemption story from the very beginning.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

What we want to give you on this podcast is the whole truth. We don't want to skip over parts that are different or unusual. We don't want to shy away from the things many just don't want to think about. This part of the story is just as much truth as the easier parts.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Please listen to it. And here's why we're saying this and why it's important for today's discussion. When we get to passages like what we read earlier or others from Revelation 9, Genesis 6, Jude, or 2 Peter, many believers instinctively try to simplify or dumb down that text. They treat it like symbolism or myths. They say it's a distraction from the gospel's message. But if you do that with these and other spiritual verses, you don't protect the gospel. In fact, just the opposite. You weaken it and you lose the plot line that makes the gospel shine. Evil is real. It is out there, and it is part of the future story that we will see. So if your worldview says scriptural truth has to fit inside a comfort zone or inside what you've heard in most modern-day Sunday sermons, then as they say, buckle up. You are going to feel some tension today. Please lean into what I'm going to say because the purpose of this section of the episode is not to entertain you with weirdness or spookiness. The purpose is to expand your understanding of what the Bible says about God's whole story, which includes a wide variety of spiritual elements. We want you to recognize that the unseen threads mentioned in Scripture are not fringe elements to the story. They're foundational to it. Knowing them and believing them is critical to grasping how Revelation 9 unfolds and even the remainder of Revelation.

Brief history of the Nephilim

SPEAKER_01 23:45

So now, with that said, let's go back to the beginning in Genesis because you can't understand Revelation 9's demons from the abyss unless you understand why they would be locked in the abyss in the first place. This summary will give you a very quick history lesson about the origin of these demons in Revelation.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

I know we say it's a quick history, but it may not be. But anyway, this quick history has quite a few verses. Please actively listen today and then go to our website and get a copy of the script from this episode, which will be published there. The website again is www.onguard244.com. Look in the drop-down menu where it says episodes, and you can get a text with the verses, or just re-listen to the to the to the episode. Alright, so here we go. In the beginning, God created the universe, including the earth. Then he created Adam and Eve and placed them in the Garden of Eden and gave them dominion over earth and everything on it. Alright? And there are a bunch of verses. Genesis chapter 1, verse 1 through 31, chapter 2, verse 7, 8 through 15, and 21 through 25 that tell that part of the story. Satan challenged God and determined not to be lower than mankind. Satan wants to overthrow God and to be God. Listen to these verses. In 1 Corinthians, Paul writes of the promise that man will rule over and judge the angels at some point in our future. It's in 1 Corinthians chapter 6, verse 2 and 3. And then there's an Old Testament passage where God is talking to one of the evil kings of Israel. The passage is one of those double meaning passages where God is actually speaking to Satan through the earthly king. All right, here's what the verse here's what the verses say. God says, quote, Oh, how you are a fallen from heaven, O day star, son of dawn, how you were cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low. You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven above the stars of God. I will set my throne on high. I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I will make myself like the Most High. But you are brought down to Shoal to the far reaches of the pit. That's in Isaiah chapter 14, 12 through 15.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Satan and the angels who side with him are dismissed from heaven and are exiled to the earth. You find that in Revelation chapter 12, verses 3-9, which we will get to in a few weeks. Then you find it in Luke chapter 10, verse 18, and then 2 Peter 2, verse 4. Satan tempts Adam and Eve to commit the first sin, and they are exiled from the Garden of Eden. Before they are exiled, the Messiah is prophesied to emerge from the womb of woman to crush Satan. That is in very early in the Bible in Genesis chapter 3, verse 1 through 24.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Okay, so Satan then hears the prophecy. He hears it when God gives it. He knows a Messiah is coming and he does not want it to happen. Satan therefore attempts to thwart that prophecy from that moment going forward. And at this point, where the Nephilim are introduced, right, in Satan's earliest plan, he wanted to corrupt the human genome or DNA or seed by exploiting the human reproduction process. You should recall the verse that says, The sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive, and they took as their wives any they chose. These were the watchers and the source of the creatures we now call the Nephilim. And that's in Genesis chapter 6, 1 through 4. Again, we'll see Revelation chapter 12, 1 through 6, and 13 through 17, referencing them again. The bloodline of mankind was corrupted, therefore, by the intermingling of human reproduction with angelic beings. Satan's plan was to influence the genetic material of mankind so that he could claim to be part of the bloodline which would produce the Messiah, giving Satan a chance at claiming part of the Messiah's dominion. God had to stop that. Hear this: the world was not flooded just because of mankind's sins alone. The world was flooded because the genetic profile of the human species was being distorted, warped, or corrupted by the angels having sexual relations with women and bearing children. God could not and would not let Satan be part of Jesus' genealogy. So he had to change the circumstances on earth. Genesis chapter 6, verses 5 through 13. Noah and his son's bloodlines, their specific ancestral pedigree, were unaffected by these watchers' actions. Their genetic line had not been defiled. They were still purely human. Noah is called righteous and blameless in Scripture. Again, Genesis chapter 6, 9, chapter 7, 7, 7, 13, and 8.18. God delivers Noah's family, the eight families, from the flood through the ark. All other humanity was destroyed to ensure future corruption of the bloodline did not happen. Noah's family then repopulates the earth. We see that in 1 Peter 3, verse 20.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

One more part of this explanation. God indwells mankind with a spirit that is based on his divine and perfect nature. That means human life isn't just biology, but it is an image-bearing vessel. We are physical creatures, but we are also spiritual creatures designed to know God, to respond to him, and to be accountable to him. Being human means being a God-breathed life meant to live in relationship to the Creator. Mankind is the only created beings bearing the image of God.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

And where the Watcher angels intermingled with human women, a different kind of spirit was produced. If the Nephilim are truly a hybrid corruption to humanity, then there's something that is neither fully human nor fully angelic. Their inner life or spirit is also abnormal. They don't fit cleanly into the categories God originally established in his creation. They are a violation of his created boundaries, and that makes them something out of place in God's ordered world with a nature that does not properly belong in either realm. When the bodies of the giants, the offspring or this Nephilim, when they die, their spirits had nowhere to go. So they roamed earth as restless, disembodied spirits, driven to seek habitation and influence in other bodies. In other words, their spirits didn't pass on the way a human spirit does, and they didn't return to the angelic realm either. All this detail gives us a conceptual explanation for why the gospels portray demons as craving embodiment, begging not to be sent to confinement and seeking to inhabit people or even animals.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

To complete this explanation, as part of the judgment of earth and this demonic group, God chained the demonic spirits, i.e. the rebels, until a time when they would be judged. That's 2 Peter chapter 2, verse 4, and Jude 6. And listen to these verses in Isaiah. Isaiah chapter 24, verses 22, I mean 21 and 22 says, quote, on that day the Lord will punish the host of heaven in heaven and the kings of the earth on the earth. They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit. They will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished.

5th Trumpet Sounds

SPEAKER_00 32:17

And here's the final link that drove the need to discuss this topic before Revelation 9's verse. When you understand that these spirits are restrained, they're held in chains, kept in darkness, and confined in the abyss, then the unlocking scene in Revelation 9 isn't random horror. It's a timed judicial act. God is essentially saying, You wanted to corrupt mankind and violate my design. Go ahead then. In fact, I'm going to use these demonic forces as an instrument of judgment against those who refuse my seal. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

I hope we still have our audience. Do you think we're ready to read about these next trumpets? This fifth trumpet is long, difficult, and has so much detail in it. So bear with us and listen to it all. Revelation chapter 9, verse 1 through 11 says, quote, and the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke, like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green planet or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them. And their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them. In appearance, the locusts were like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were what looked like crowns of gold, their faces were like human faces, their hair like women's hair, and their teeth like lions' teeth, but they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots, with horses rushing into battle. They have tails and stings like scorpions, and their power to hurt people for five months is in their tails. They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name is in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon. So that's end quote. Where in the world do we start to talk about this?

SPEAKER_00 35:07

I guess we just dive in. I don't know. Here we see another star, and this star is almost certainly an angel. Verse 1 in the ESV says, I saw a star fallen, and he was given. In the NIV, we have to move to verse 2 to get the same type of understanding. In the NIV, verse 1 to 2 says, the star was given the key, and when he opened the abyss. In either interpretation, that word he is important. It doesn't say it. I'm just saying, I think it's very possible, in fact, most likely, that this star has to be an angelic figure. Here are a couple examples to think about. I woke up the other night at four o'clock in the morning. I had a tug at my heart to go and read the story of Jesus' birth. In that story, there is a star. Greek word, aster, that stays with Jesus until the magi find him. The star leads them on their path. Matthew's account of the story says the Magi came into a house and saw the child, not baby or infant. This means to me there was some time between Jesus' birth and the Magi visit. We all guess it's about two years. My point is this star, right, the Greek word Aster, which appeared in the sky, was there for a long while and not like not acting like any cosmic star in the sky that I have ever heard of. Alright? And one more I ran across last week in a men's Bible study where we're going through the book of Acts. In chapter 12, Peter is in prison for disrupting the community during Passover. He was preaching about Jesus. If you read, read Acts chapter 12, verse 6 and 7. Here's what the verses say, quote, now when Herod was about to bring him, Peter, out on that very night, Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains and sentries before the door were guarding the prison. And behold, an angel of the Lord stood next to him, and a light shone in the cell. Unquote. These two examples demonstrate that angels produce are embodied in a bright light. And if we hold to these two examples, which demonstrate angels as bright lights, then I think the star, right, the word Aster in Revelation could actually be an angel.

unknown 37:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

John's words in Revelation say, quote, I saw a star fall in from heaven to earth, and he was given the key, end quote. John doesn't treat the star like an object that crashes. Instead, he treats it like someone who can receive authority and carry out an assignment. We have at least two examples. There may be more that associate light with angels. I think we can assume the star we see here in Revelation 9 is probably a spiritual being. So then we get to the new question. Is this angel a servant of God, or is this angel a servant of Satan?

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Or is it even Satan himself? There is a huge amount of disagreement on this question, but we do know that this angel is given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. Many choose to think this angel is a demon, or maybe Satan, because we have other places in the Bible where Satan is said to have fallen from heaven. Jesus actually says in Luke chapter 10, verse 18 that he saw Satan fall like lightning from the sky. So I guess that view is possible. Many of your Bible notes might even have that as a comment.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

But I find it hard to believe that the key to this place was handed over to Satan or one of his own. Throughout Scripture, keys are a picture of delegated authority. And in this plot line of the trumpets, it just doesn't make sense that God would hand them over to one of the demons of Satan at this point.

The Spirits from Prison are Released

SPEAKER_00 38:56

I agree with you. We know that in Revelation 20, we will see that Satan is bound up in chains by an angel and locked up for a thousand years in this bottomless pit. So I don't think God is going to give Satan the key to that place and then ask him to give it back.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Regardless, the larger point is that this shaft is being unlocked and opened by this angel. God is directing the events under these trumpet judgments, and he is allowing this shaft that we discussed earlier to be opened under this fifth trumpet. He is allowing those that have been locked up in this abyss to come forth for a time. Mark, say again who has been locked up here and why might they be getting out now at this point?

SPEAKER_00 39:42

There are many angles to this piece of the story. I'm going to answer your question, but I want to set up all the parts of the story as we normally do. We need to talk about these pieces, these questions. Who was locked up? Why are they being let out now? Who's left on the earth to be affected? Conversely, who isn't left on earth any longer? Were these locusts natural, physical, spiritual, or just what were they? Who's in charge of them? What are they allowed to do? How long does it last? And what were the effects on the earth? That is a lot of questions.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Yes. All of those questions must be answered to get to the full understanding about what is happening here when the fifth trumpet is blown. The big picture, just before the fifth trumpet sounds, looks like this. Believers have been called to endure and persevere under the persecution and tribulation of this seven-year period and even under the time after the midpoint when the Antichrist is raging against them in Israel. Believers are not appointed to God's wrath. Times will intensify as the seals are open over the whole period. God is allowing these things to happen as judgment on the world and to people who won't believe or turn to Him. Believers are being tested and purified as they give witness and testimony to the world even unto death. God marks his remnant of Jewish people with a seal on their forehead. At some point, and this is really the key message, God cuts short things to save his believers. We discussed this back with Seal 5. Remember, God tells the souls under the altar, quote, that more have to be martyred, end quote. And we said that means God knows there is a time when it will all stop. At some point, all who will believe have then believed, and the remainder will not repent. Mark and I have danced around when this point in time happens. We just don't know. The scripture is not specific, but we believe right here at the blowing of this fifth trumpet is a possible place where it happens. We're willing to say the rapture could happen right now at this time because trumpet five is the first moment where the text explicitly shifts from general judgment to a kind of targeted supernatural wrath that believers are specifically exempt from. Revelation 9 says these tormentors are permitted to harm everyone except those who have the seal of God. So if God's seal in this context is his protective mark, then it creates a clean theological line. God gathers the believers out, he marks the Jewish 144,000 that will remain, and he protects them during the intensified judgments. So our working conviction is right before trumpet five is unleashed, God intervenes to remove his people from the sphere of wrath. He cuts the days short. He ends the harvest and he brings his redeemed into his presence. That doesn't end tribulation on earth, it just ends the tribulation for the saints. And it also explains why revelation can immediately pivot to a world that is still alive but still and still hard-hearted, and now entering a phase of judgment so severe that it can only be described as wrath. Believers are gone from the earth before God's wrath starts, which is meant to punish those who would not believe him. We believe these fifth and sixth trumpets are blown after the rapture. We will come back to this point at the end.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

I know we've not reached the part of the book of Revelation where the bowls of wrath are mentioned. They don't appear in the text until Chapter 16. But just like we have described so far, these events are not all sequential. We believe the bold judgments could be happening within the blowing of the final three trumpets. We believe they could be part of this timeline. Remember the umbrella or swim lane metaphors again, if it'll help.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Everyone, please understand that no amount of study and research will put this whole picture firmly together in a nice, neat box with a bow on it. We will never be able to fully and completely reconcile all pieces for a precise timeline. We can only give some general ideas about it. It won't stop us from understanding the details about what is happening and being able to study them.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

And you know, even if we could do it precisely, we can't understand it fully until we've gone through it all. I'm reading a book by Michael Heiser titled The Unseen Realm. On page 349, he makes a point that speaks to what we just said. He says this quote, many scholars and Bible students have proposed all sorts of things for interpreting what the Bible says about end times. But anything approximating precision is not possible, unquote. So from this perspective and placing the whole picture, we can now discuss the detailed questions that I mentioned above regarding this fifth trumpet.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

Okay. So back to the details of the fifth trumpet. Who is locked up in this bottomless pit?

SPEAKER_00 45:31

These are the demons that have been placed in the abyss because they would not stay within their proper realm. These were the demons mentioned at the beginning of this episode and possibly others. So why are they being let out at this fifth trumpet? I think there are a few parts to the answer to that question. These demons will be judged themselves, but in this trumpet, God plans to use them as part of the judgment of those who dwell on the earth. All right. Who is left on the earth at this point to be affected by all this? It is possible that only non-believers and the protected remnant are left on the earth when this activity happens. The details in the language of the fifth trumpet say that these demonic locusts can only affect people who do not have the seal of God on their forehead. So it appears that they can affect everyone but the remnant. The remnant are the only ones with this seal of God on their forehead. Nothing here in the verses is said about believers. So again, we think that the believers, by this point, have been raptured out.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Yep. The language is pretty specific as to who these demonic locusts can affect. It is hard for us to believe that the believers would be left on the earth to face them while the remnant is being protected. I guess this leads us back to the discussion about God's wrath. So is this fifth trumpet part of God's wrath? I think we said last year in the episode about God's wrath that we didn't think God's wrath started until the bowls of wrath started being poured out on the earth.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

Yep, there's no doubt. We see a dividing line described here in Trumpet 5. It seems to us this is potentially where God's wrath starts. We reconcile this decision by referencing the point above. All right, the bowls of wrath are nested into or are part of what is under the trumpet judgment. It seems like by this fifth trumpet, these bowls might be starting. We aren't sure. We'll get to that soon enough. Alright, one of the more other questions. Are these locusts natural or spiritual? So what we know is the impacts are real. Throughout Scripture, men's eyes are blinded to spiritual beings unless their eyes are open. We don't know what those on earth will be seeing. I think these creatures could probably be in the spiritual realm, but I do believe the dividing line between physical and spiritual will become much hazier around this time. The spiritual realm will be given much more freedom in this physical world at this time. The way these locusts are described seems spiritually demonic to me.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

And what we see is that they are led by a specific, powerful demon who is in this bottomless pit too. His name is Abaddon or Apollyon.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

The specifics of this language show you just how real the situation is. This is not a fairy tale or a story. This is as real as it can get. And the impact to those who are on earth is also very real. These locusts, quote, unquote, are allowed to affect people in a very real manner. They're going to be tormented such that they want to die. And once again, we are shown that God is in charge of life itself. Part of the judgment is the inability to die even when they want to. Things get so bad for people that they want to die, but they can't.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

I think this will be physical affliction from spiritual forces. I don't believe those on earth being affected by these locusts will really know what is going on.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

This reminds me of the man cursed by the Legion of Demons, which we discussed near the beginning of this episode. We really don't know how all this will unravel, but people's appearances and actions will likely change. The man interacting with Jesus was living among the tombs in a graveyard area and isolated from normal society. You see that in Mark chapter 5, verse 2 and 3, and Luke chapter 8, verse 27. He often wore no clothes. Luke says for a long time in Luke chapter 8, verse 27, he was violent and terrifying. People were afraid to pass by that area in Matthew 8, 28. He was restless and tormented, crying out day and night in Mark 5.5. He practiced self-harm, cutting himself with stones, and when people tried to bind him with chains and shackles, he repeatedly broke them in Mark chapter 5, verse 3 and 4.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

And remember, this fifth trumpet judgment lasts at least five months. This is the only place where we actually see an amount of time given. So, Mark, what does this time frame mean to us?

SPEAKER_00 50:19

I think it means a few things, and none of them are comforting. First, it tells us this isn't a quick flash of judgment. This is sustained and long enough for the whole world to feel it and realize something supernatural is happening. Think about how long five months last. This will produce panic, societal breakdown, and despair as it fully sets in. And second, five months is long enough to the world to be shaken, humbled, and confronted with the reality that God is still in control.

6th Trumpet Sounds

SPEAKER_01 50:49

So let's move on to Revelation chapter 9, verse 12, which says, The first woe has passed. Behold, two woes are still to come. And then we move then to the next verses, which is the sixth trumpet. So Revelation 9, verses 13 through 19 says, quote, Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates. So the four angels who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year were released to kill a third of mankind. The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number, and this is how I saw the horses in my vision, and those who rode them. They wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions' heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths. For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

So just like the fifth trumpet, this one is a spiritual impact to the physical world. And we see four more angels, but these angels have been bound. Being bound, they show us a hint as to who they are. They are fallen angels who were part of the rebellion of Satan. God would never have to bind his angels, since they would be obedient and faithful to his words. These four angels have been bound until an appointed time. Well, this sixth trumpet is that appointed time.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

And just like when the angels came out of the bottomless pit in the previous passage, when these angels are unbound, they do evil. They are released to kill a third of mankind. Evil does what evil does against any and all that they are allowed to affect. And here is that one-third piece again. Sometimes we see unbelieving people make statements like they would be happier in hell with other hell raisers, but that's a complete misunderstanding about what evil is and how it will be. Satan and his demons won't be having a party with the unbelievers who end up there. They will be tormenting everyone and being tormented themselves. Without God, there is no love. These evil demons hate everyone, including those who choose to side with Satan and the Antichrist. They won't be comrades. They will torment even those who choose to oppose God.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

And when this sixth trumpet is blown, they will be given freedom to kill one-third of mankind. Just like you mentioned, one-third is destroyed. So we believe the final destruction is still being held off.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

And just like under the fifth trumpet, it will be the spirit world that will affect the natural world. The passage says that there will be three plagues that will be what kills the one-third. These plagues are called fire and smoke and sulfur. Often people get caught up with the number of mounted troops mentioned in this trumpet. You've likely heard of the 200 million number that is mentioned. Some try and speculate if this is a real army of people from China or somewhere, but I don't believe this army is a physical one made up of humans. I believe this army is spiritual and demonic.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

These are riders on horses that we have seen in the spiritual world over and over. This time they are demonic. But the impact on the physical world is very real. We would only be speculating as to how the specific three plagues impact people. We just know that it's so bad that one-third of the remaining people on earth are killed. The death, death, and devastation will be overwhelming.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

With the judgment under this sixth trumpet, God has taken a step of allowing people to be tormented without their death, as it was in the fifth trumpet, to a judgment that actually kills one-third of the people who are alive at the time. This trumpet judgment is real, complete devastation and annihilation. God is getting close to wrapping things up. This sixth trumpet is some conclusive wrath for sure.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

And we will find this to be true because when we get to the coming seventh trumpet, we will see that things have mostly been resolved. Many things have happened that changed the landscape on earth. We can look forward to that trumpet.

Summary to this point in our study

SPEAKER_01 55:29

But before we get to that point, we've basically two chapters of detail to read and understand. The final two verses of this chapter are an incredible summary of where things are in the world at this point. And we will discuss them thoroughly next week, along with an incredible announcement by a mighty angel.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

So as we finish this episode, let's summarize again right where we are in this story. We have seen the whole picture come into focus, but in a general kind of way. We've not still seen any real real details about the Antichrist or his false prophet. We have not seen anything about the two witnesses, or Mystery Babylon, or the Great Harvest, or the Battle of Armageddon, or many other details. All of those details will be discussed, and we will see how they fit into what this focused general picture is in front of us right now.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

Yes, for now we know that Satan and the Antichrist are given freedom to deceive people and come after the Jewish people and those who believe in Jesus Christ with devastating persecution and tribulation. But God begins to judge the empire of the Antichrist and those who side with him, bringing people to a place of choosing what they believe. Many Christians die at the hands of this Antichrist because they remain faithful to God. At some point, God cuts short the wrath of Satan against his people and he intervenes. He seals his chosen remnant of Israel for protection and raptures the faithful saints, then pours out increasing judgment on the Antichrist and his followers. Jesus returns to take control over this earth. That part is yet to come.

Conclusion

SPEAKER_00 57:08

It's going to be fun to see the details of how this happens as we get into them over the next few episodes.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

So thank you so much for listening to us today. Next week we'll talk about some strongholds which get in our way and really bind up many people and then discuss the mysteries of God. It will be an awesome episode. Thanks again for listening. You can subscribe to our podcast through your applications follow us button wherever you get your podcast. Also, please tell others about us if you can. Our main method of spreading our message is through fellow believers who are willing to forward it on. Please share our podcast with anyone you think might listen. Remember also that you can send us an email to notify at onguard244.com if you want to be on an email distribution list to receive notification of new episodes and seasons. Please update your spam controls to make sure our notification does not get redirected there. Our notification will come from no reply at onguard244.com. Once again, you can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Podcast, and iHeartRadio Podcast currently. Also, you can find us on Instagram and Facebook or at our website www.onguard244.com. If you have a comment or an eye or any idea, then send those messages to comment at onguard244.com. See you next week. See ya.